Overpriced, Overlumed, Overpolished Primero G581

[LouS]

So here's a long-time grail of mine, one of the six original 18K Primero references, the G581 (you will find it misidentified as a G381 in Roessler). Nice enough except that someone has used bathtub grout to relume it, and priced it about 2.5 to 3 times what it is worth.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-196...224120613?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item3381fc3125

 

[dxbzenith]

Should this watch be high-gloss polished all over?
This example appears to be really really glossy?

 

[LouS]

that's a good point. It shares the case with the other G 58x references, which seem to have a polished bezel, but brushed lugs

 

[dxbzenith]

Beautiful watch, but lugs on this one for auction look mirror gloss isn't it?

 

[John Chris]

LouS

that's a good point. It shares the case with the other G 58x references, which seem to have a polished bezel, but brushed lugs

I have a fine G581, and the lugs are indeed brushed, not polished.

 

[LouS]

John Chris

I have a fine G581, and the lugs are indeed brushed, not polished.

Right then. "Overpolished" added to the thread title

 

[BGBG]

I would not touch this watch with a barge pole.The most important point of all has being overlooked IT has a later replacement 3019 phc movement.

 

[LouS]

BGBG

I would not touch this watch with a barge pole.The most important point of all has being overlooked IT has a later replacement 3019 phc movement.

Because it doesn't have "thirty one jewels" written out on the bridge? That's well spotted, but it'd be nice to confirm that they are not all like that - Chris?

 

[BGBG]

LouS

Because it doesn't have "thirty one jewels" written out on the bridge? That's well spotted, but it'd be nice to confirm that they are not all like that - Chris?

IT STILL AMAZES ME, people just do not know a very early 3019 movement which this reference does not have. Ok let me point out the differences,operating lever [8140] should have a small rivet not a big fat rivet, regulator [300/2] should have a chrome adjuster screw not a blue one, and the pillar wheel [ 8070 ] should not have a guard on top of it, these are the correct characteristics of a very early 3019 movement, a xxxDxxx g58x should have this early type of movement as I have pointed out this is so so important, the movement is overlooked all too often i have a feeling that many a man has bought his beautiful early el primero only to open the back case cover and to find a later movement inside.

 

[LouS]

When do you place the transition to the later version?

 

[BGBG]

I dont think zenith even know the answer to the year change , but i will hazerd a guess to around mid 1970, all xxxDxxx el primeros should have this very early 3019 movement with these features and not the later revamped movement

 

[BGBG]

BGBG

I dont think zenith even know the answer to the year change , but i will hazerd a guess to around mid 1970, all xxxDxxx el primeros should have this very early 3019 movement with these features and not the later revamped movement

When I mean all xxxDxxx should have the early movement ,What I should have said is that all el primeros with numbers from 485DXXX to 539DXXX should have the early movement, and case numbers from 706DXXX on should have the revamped 3019 movement.

 

[LouS]

Hmmm. A cursory review of the collection shows that not all of the features you mentioned above are consistent - that is, movements don't fall cleanly into an "early" or "late" category. Could these changes have been introduced individually over the course of movement production?
I'll need to find time to look into this more closely.

 

[BGBG]

No i have only seen them in the very early 3019 that is to say the first 3019 phc movements that came out in 1969 , it is a must to have theis features in case numbers from 485DXXX to 539DXXX

 

[John Chris]

Well here are some pictures of another G581 movement (case # 485Dxxx), which has some of the features mentioned but not others. Note also the different ball-bearing/pivot arrangement for the rotor. A "replacement" 3019PHC? I don't think so. What would be the point? Experience suggests that hard and fast rules like BGBG proposes were seldom in play at the Zenith manufacture. But further research may convince me! By all means have a go.

 

[Stewart H]

According to the technical manual:

"In order to prevent the operating lever hook from jumping over the saw teeth of the pillar wheel (8070), we have added a new guard (8157) fixed above the pillar wheel by a screw (58157). The latter replaces the former pillar wheel screw (58070)"

So the presence of this does not preclude the movement from being an early one and would have been sensible to fit at any service after its introduction to prevent damage and/or cost if this were to happen.

 

[BGBG]

I also have this later technical manual , and I also have the first manual that came out, which this part [8157] is not listed in because it was not part of the el primero movement at the beginning. The example john chris has shown is a correct very early 3019 movement except for [8157] operating lever hook cover which should not be in a mile of this very early movement. I would say it was added at the time of a service by zenith or whoever. I would say this part was not introduced onto the 3019 until around 1972 maybe late 1971 , the ebay watch has more later parts than just the [8157] hook cover on it as I have pointed out earlier.

 

[Stewart H]

I accept that the e-bay one might be dodgy, but the one that Chris shows seems fine to me with the improvement of the cover. There are many examples of watch manufactures improving components and them being available to be fitted retrospectively. There are also examples where the retrospective fitting is not possible - as in the Landeron 48/148/248 minute recorder jumper.

 

[BGBG]

stewart H I am very fussy about the very early el primero 485DXXX TO 539DXXX it just has to be right.

 

[LouS]

BGBG

stewart H I am very fussy about the very early el primero 485DXXX TO 539DXXX it just has to be right.

If you accept that some of these changes were made when watches came in for service, your "original" might just mean "unserviced" in this case!