FIRST AUTOMATIC CHRONO: Zenith El Primero cal. 3019

[BGBG]

looking around all the other forums it appears the heuer and Seiko camp are outraged. I think they are considering having a day to celebrate the day their watches were put in a jewellery shop.

 

[papaebetu]

I prefer celebrate it when watches comes in my hands.....

GIGI

 

[Jeff Stein]

March 9, 1969 was the date for Heuer and Breitling . . . here's what I wrote on my "Project 99 " webpage -- http://www.onthedash.com/docs/Project99.html

At the New York City press conference, Heuer gave away an Autavia to one of the members of the press, who was in attendance. By the end of the afternoon, the lucky winner of that watch had taken it into Heuer for servicing. Yes, the phenomenal new automatic chronograph had not even made it through the first day without "teething" problems!!

Jeff

If the Zenith announcement was a low-key, local event, the flamboyance of the Chronomatic group in announcing the arrival of their automatic chronograph was at the opposite extreme. On March 3, 1969, Heuer, Breitling and Hamilton-Buren held press conferences at the Intercontinental Hotel in Geneva, Switzerland, and the PanAm Building in New York City, with a large group of media present at these press conferences. Additional press conferences were held in Tokyo, Hong Kong and Beirut.

Mr. Gerald Bauer, President of the Federation Horlogere Suisse (the Swiss watch industry's trade association, known as the "FH") was the keynote speaker at the Geneva press conference, with another FH officer making remarks at the New York press conference. Prototypes of the Chronomatics were shown, and some lucky members of the audience -- selected by a drawing -- even went home with the very first samples. These March 3, 1969 press conferences were a sensation for the Swiss watch industry - the era of the automatic chronograph had arrived!

 

[Interstatetime]

I love this disagreement/fight....just as long as no punches are thrown. It is nice that some people have enough brand passion to still care enough to have a fight. It is also nice that some people still have enough watch passion to simply care about the history. Vive le désaccord ... Vive le montres!

JohnCote

 

[Jeff Stein]

Here's an interesting aspect of the "fight" -- with Zenith and Heuer now both owned by LVMH, it seems that there is something of a truce between the brands, in terms of the claims to having been "first". Last time I did some digging, Zenith was claiming to have made the first integrated automatic chronograph and Heuer was claiming to have made the first modular automatic chronograph, so both brands were claiming to be first.

By contrast, at the time that I researched the "Project 99" webpage (say, 2008), Seiko had published all sorts of histories of the company, but did not even mention its claim to making the first automatic chronograph. As the saying goes, "it's a sorry dog that won't wag it's own tail."

Thanks to the crew here for an interesting discussion . . . you guys have a nice community with lost of great information being shared.

Jeff

 

[gatorcpa]

Jeff Stein

By contrast, at the time that I researched the "Project 99" webpage (say, 2008), Seiko had published all sorts of histories of the company, but did not even mention its claim to making the first automatic chronograph. As the saying goes, "it's a sorry dog that won't wag it's own tail."

That's true. I think the main reason is that the cals. 6139 and 6138 were discontinued by the mid-1970's, while another Seiko "first" has stuck around for a very long time.

That would be the Astron, the world's first quartz watch. A little more historically significant, I'd say.
gatorcpa

 

[BGBG]

The heuer and Seiko companies did not dispute that the el primero was the first automatic chronograph in the world, after all they were there on the 10 January 1969 and saw what had just happened to their dismay.As you said after you talked with Jack Heuer, he was not happy when zenith beat him to the punch, he knew heuer were beat and so did Seiko, and that was the end of it as far as they were concerned. Zenith made the first automatic chronograph in the world. It is the loyal passionate Seiko and Heuer fans who are trying to grab onto something.

 

[ulackfocus]

Interstatetime

I love this disagreement/fight....just as long as no punches are thrown.

BGBG

It is the loyal passionate Seiko and Heuer fans who are trying to grab onto something.

Only took two posts to end that!

I have no bias towards any of the 3 brands having owned watches from all of them. The bottom line to me is when I could get my grubby mitts on one at the local AD if I were a watch-buying consumer back in 1969.

Was the EP the most elegant and complete design? I'll definitely give it that nod. But it was the last of the 3 to be put in display cases for purchase.

Since the Russians beat America into space, does that mean we have to alter history and say the US wasn't the first to the moon? Nope, because the moon is the moon, and in this instance the moon equals a watch for sale in a store's display case with stock available to buy. That, IMO, makes for the winner of the race.

 

[Jeff Stein]

Zenith made the first automatic chronograph in the world. It is the loyal passionate Seiko and Heuer fans who are trying to grab onto something.

Absolutely wrong, in my humble opinion . . . but also not worth further debate. If it makes you happy believing this, then maybe that's all that matters.

 

[browncow]

The way to end this endless 'who's first' argument...collect all three!
Happy Xmas, everyone!

ben
Singapore

 

[LouS]

Jeff Stein

Absolutely wrong, in my humble opinion . . . but also not worth further debate. If it makes you happy believing this, then maybe that's all that matters.

Fully agree. There is nothing to be gained in pushing the point to extremes in a community of knowledgeable enthusiasts.

 

[BGBG]

Ah yes see what I mean. History is what matters, 10th January 1969, you have seen the evidence but still you grab on with your integrated and modular nonsense and first to sell nonsense Next you will try to argue that heuer were the first to produce an automatic movement with blue screws and gold plated movement and so on good grief . Personally I think us zenith chaps should not respond to such utter nonsense anymore, but then again life would be boring without you heuer folk. Merry Christmas and a happy new year ps keep the 10th January free.

 

[ulackfocus]

BGBG

Ah yes see what I mean. History is what matters, 10th January 1969, you have seen the evidence but still you grab on with your integrated and modular nonsense and first to sell nonsense Next you will try to argue that heuer were the first to produce an automatic movement with blue screws and gold plated movement and so on good grief . Personally I think us zenith chaps should not respond to such utter nonsense anymore, but then again life would be boring without you heuer folk. Merry Christmas and a happy new year ps keep the 10th January free.

Um, do you realize that you sound like a die hard Zenith fan boy? You're the only extremist posting in this thread.

 

[Jeff Stein]

Thanks to the crew here for an interesting discussion . . . you guys have a nice community with lots of great information being shared.

Let's make that "most of the crew".

 

[MMMD]

OK... just going to lob one more firebomb. We'd probably know more about the early history of these fine automatic chronographs if it weren't for the technologically inferior Speedmaster hogging all the chronograph news bandwidth in Spring/Summer 1969. I blame the Omegans for the entire debate.

 

[BGBG]

Aaa you know the zenith camp have been getting this stuff from the heuer camp in the background for a long time now , I hand a bulova bullhead once with a cal 14/ heuer cal 12, I was quite happy it was not a bad old motor.

 

[BGBG]

Jeff Stein

Let's make that "most of the crew".

OUCH

 

[SpikiSpikester]

MMMD

We'd probably know more about the early history of these fine automatic chronographs if it weren't for the technologically inferior Speedmaster hogging all the chronograph news bandwidth in Spring/Summer 1969. I blame the Omegans for the entire debate.

Hmm... think I can hear the sound of hordes of Speedmaster fanboys coming to "defend" themselves

Ben's solution seems the fairest though - collect them all

Fascinating discussion btw.

 

[MMMD]

Agree, collect them all and let God sort them out. Must now address my Heuer deficiency... and I have some ideas...

 

[gatorcpa]

BGBG

History is what matters, 10th January 1969, you have seen the evidence but still you grab on with your integrated and modular nonsense and first to sell nonsense.

Please explain the meaning of the word "nonsense" in your context. This conversation is not about the method of construction. It is clear that the Zenith design was the best of the three. That and the fact that the Zenith factory had the foresight to save most of the spare parts supply (against company orders), ensured El Primero's survival to this generation.

I personally have always considered Seiko to be first, since it was in Japanese stores in March 1969 (I have seen production dates as early as Feb. 1969) while Zenith and Heuer were still figuring out how to mass-produce their respective movements. I can invent a car that gets 1,000 miles a gallon, but if I can't produce it economically then all that engineering effort is wasted. But hey, to each his own.

BGBG

Personally I think us zenith chaps should not respond to such utter nonsense anymore, but then again life would be boring without you heuer folk. Merry Christmas and a happy new year ps keep the 10th January free.

The article at the top is very nice, but it is not definitive research. There has been no evidence presented that shows that January 10th should be celebrated for anything more than the first newspaper report of the existence of the El Primero. The press conference could have taken place on the 10th, the 9th or even late in 1968. There is no mention of the date in the article. Also, I don't know if that newspaper is a daily, weekly, monthly, etc.

If the Zenith factory can find the press release, then we'll know the real date.
gatorcpa