Zenith El Primero 1970 Brown Dial

[J-Luc]

Hello,

below Zenith REF.1301 with a completely brown dial ! case number 232E0XX
This is the first time I see this type of dial !






Dial in perfect condition ! Superb !




oh! surprise!

L Swiss Made L - dial wial with Luminova !


yes, it is the luminova !

Questions
it's a replacement dial 1990s ?
Have you ever seen this type of dial?

I speak very little English (single words and short sentence) sorry.
Regards, J-Luc

 

[MMMD]

J-Luc,

The number 1301 is the reference number from the case manufacturer, Spillman. This is a replacement dial for a model A385... I think you are correct about "Luminova". I have seen similar replacement dials for the A384 (white dial with black subdials)... some forum members here even own them, and they look good... but I don't believe I have seen this brown replacement dial before.

 

[Gavin]

My guess is it's a service dial going by the luminova. Should read T SWISS MADE T on the original dial. Lou and the others will probably offer more details.

 

[LouS]

J-Luc,

Thanks for posting this - superb condition indeed! This dial is entirely new to me - I have never seen a similar one before. The quality leaves me in no doubt that it is from Le Locle. As MMMD suggests, the L Swiss L suggests it is a later service dial. We have seen panda dials (black on white) with the same marking, and with "El Primero" written in the original 1969 script. I suspect this is of a similar age to those. Perhaps it was intended as a replacement for the graded smoke dial of the A 385, but was done in a uniform shade for who knows what reason - ease of production perhaps?

Again as MMMD notes, the 1301 is the casemaker's reference, and is the same across four Zenith model references (A 384-385-3817-3818). The case number of the watch leaves open the possibility that it was originally A 3817 or 3818 - these are the references that I have documented in the 232 E xxx range (there is a single A 385, but waiting for more before taking that to be original).

Regardless, in its current configuration, this may very well be a piece unique - congratulations on having the insight and judgement to take a little risk in buying it! Most interesting.

Between this and John's early 3019 PHF, it goes to show that there is more to be discovered when it comes to early El Primero.

 

[J-Luc]

Has all,
thank you for taking the time to answer !

So, this dial is not very common and rather "rare" ! but no time in 1970

Excuse my english.
Regards, J-Luc

 

[LouS]

J-Luc

So, this dial is not very common and rather "rare" ! but no time in 1970

A little Googling reveals that LumiNova was developed in 1993, so it appears not a 1970 dial.

 

[John Chris]

I happen to be wearing my 1970 El Primero A385 as I read this interesting thread. As a collector who, some time ago, acquired an A384 with what I thought was an original dial in superb shape, and only later discovered that it was a Zenith service replacement dial (the L SWISS MADE L being the most obvious giveaway), it was instructive to compare my dial with this one.

This is certainly a replacement dial. Quite apart from minimal variations from the A385 original dial (e.g. on the original, the 45 second mark on the seconds sub-dial meets the 45 minute/9 o'clock mark - indeed on the original, all the sub-dial markings go tight to the edge of the sub-dials), the unprecedented dial colour (Zenith seems to have abandoned the shading from darker brown to lighter on the replacement, hence the switch from black lettering to white) and its new condition, Zenith has always marked its service dials in accordance with the lume. Thus those using Luminova are marked with either Ls or dots on either side of the SWISS MADE, instead of the T for the Tritium which all original El Primeros employed. The printing on the dial is wonderfully authentic.

As others have pointed out, it is particularly interesting that this rather attractive dial has not shown up before - and we are all persons who look for these things!

For LouS's benefit, I muse: given that this appears to be a replacement designed for the A385, and given that the colour is brownish - indeed very close to the darker brownish colour of the outer part of the dial on my A385 - does this not support the notion that the brown shaded A385 dials were always that way, rather than deteriorated grey-shaded dials? Like I've always said?

Chris

 

[LouS]

John Chris

For LouS's benefit, I muse: given that this appears to be a replacement designed for the A385, and given that the colour is brownish - indeed very close to the darker brownish colour of the outer part of the dial on my A385 - does this not support the notion that the brown shaded A385 dials were always that way, rather than deteriorated grey-shaded dials? Like I've always said?

Well, here I was thinking along the same lines...except that to my eye, J-Luc's dial is grey, not brown. Grey like the color underlying the tachymeter of my own A 385 which I also happen to be wearing today. (Do you recognize your old watch, J-Luc?)

It certainly isn't the cappuccino color of your dial. That supports my point of view that the original color was grey - taupe if you will - rather well, don't you think?

(for those who are confused, this is not a catfight between interior decorators - the discussion has to do whether there are two color variants of the A 385 dial, or whether they all started gray/taupe and the brown ones are photo-deteriorated)

 

[John Chris]

Well the problem is that we need to have all three watches together under the same light to make this determination. To my eye, looking at J-Luc's dial on the computer and comparing it to my dial on the wrist, the Tachymetre parts of the two dials look the same. Yours does not. But lighting makes such a difference that we should all meet someplace central (Winnipeg? St. Helena? Not sure where J.-Luc lives) and photograph them together.

 

[avantnoire]

J-Luc, great find! My 'flawed' a385 says hello!

cheers,
David

 

[LouS]

John Chris

Well the problem is that we need to have all three watches together under the same light to make this determination. To my eye, looking at J-Luc's dial on the computer and comparing it to my dial on the wrist, the Tachymetre parts of the two dials look the same. Yours does not. But lighting makes such a difference that we should all meet someplace central (Winnipeg? St. Helena? Not sure where J.-Luc lives) and photograph them together.

Agreed. We need to have an A 385 summit. Le Locle springs to mind as a location. If only Zenith would oblige....

 

[J-Luc]

avantnoire

J-Luc, great find! My 'flawed' a385 says hello!

cheers,
David

David,
beautiful dial ! I like

LouS

Agreed. We need to have an A 385 summit. Le Locle springs to mind as a location. If only Zenith would oblige....

no problem for me, I live about 60 miles

 

[Interstatetime]

How about simply a Zenith 3019 summit. I will show up.

JohnCote

 

[ulackfocus]

Lou, loan me something appropriate so I can come too?

 

[LouS]

I'll be happy to run the watch rental so that we can all go