Adventures in Watch Collecting - What would you do?

[LouS]

So I've been following this one around Ebay with lowball bids for a while. The dial has major "issues" but the rose gold case with the fluted bezel and the beveled is not so common and a very imposing beauty at 38mm. It started with estate pickers Hess Fine Auctions and cycled three or so times before it met reserve. I was surprised to see it pop up from another west coast seller recently with no reserve, and I lowballed it again. This time I won - much to my surprise - for $1175.

One of the puzzles of the watch for me was why it would have a UG case reference and serial number. Zenith certainly used UG ebauches, and probably the same casemakers too, but Zeniths usually carry their own reference numbers and often their own serial numbers.

Movement is a clean Zenith cal 156 - for all intents identical to UG's Cal 256.

Now, the seller's image of the inside caseback was blurry so the first thing I did was check it. Case is properly hallmarked.

But let's take a closer look. Do you see the polished out UG escutcheon? The remnants of the final two letters "AL"? Which are not the final two letters in "Zenith"

An unpolished one would look like this



So that answers the question about the UG serial and case reference. It IS a UG, and someone has swapped in a Zenith dial and movement. Classic franken. So, is it a keeper? A return? What would you do?

 

[woodwkr2]

First things first, I'd like to see pictures of the JLC ADOS (?) that you've got it sitting on

It's a beautiful piece and I believe that the unique bezel is more commonly seen on Zenith--though, this is your territory and surely know better than I do.

This would eat away at me, as I always like having keepers that are completely correct--or that could eventually be made completely correct. So the question, in my eyes, is: how likely is it for a correct Zenith caseback to float by one day?

Given what we all know about the unfortunate gold melters, it seems far more likely that you may eventually find a correct orphaned movement, dial, or even hands, but are extremely unlikely to come across a correct case back in gold. So even if I had scored a great price on it, if I did not intend to turn it into a parts watch, I think I'd reluctantly be packing it back up.

It's quite pretty though.

 

[gatorcpa]

Here's a question for you. Is it possible that Zenith bought the whole watch from Universal, deliberately removed the logo from the inside of back and fitted the dial you see there, maybe the bezel as well? Done here in the US by the distributor?

Certainly looks like a period correct UG Uni-Compax, doesn't it?

More questions than answers. Stranger things have been known to happen.
gatorcpa

 

[Stewart H]

Lou, you know me - the first thing I study in detail is the movement. The only picture I have of a 156 is the picture in Rossler, but there are definitely two parts that differ from the Rossler photo and those are the minute recorder jumper and the flyback lever. These two parts do co-incide with the shape of the parts from the UG version so I would say that the movement goes with the case - with the exception of the chronograph bridge. So the incongruous part is the dial.

None the less, I'd send it back.

 

[woodwkr2]

Stewart H

Lou, you know me - the first thing I study in detail is the movement. The only picture I have of a 156 is the picture in Rossler, but there are definitely two parts that differ from the Rossler photo and those are the minute recorder jumper and the flyback lever. These two parts do co-incide with the shape of the parts from the UG version so I would say that the movement goes with the case - with the exception of the chronograph bridge. So the incongruous part is the dial.

None the less, I'd send it back.

The minute recording jumper/pawl is a part that has seen a great deal of variation over the years. A more detailed study would be in order, as I suspect that the subtle changes represent an evolution towards a longer lasting/sturdier design... but the bottom line is that I have ordered completely correct replacement parts that are sometimes a different design than the broken one that I'm trying to replace. It certainly doesn't bother me and in many cases may represent a factory upgrade.

Your observations about the flyback lever are quite interesting, as the one in Rossler is subtly different than what I see on the Universal end of things. For the Zenith cognoscenti: is this a known fact? That is, did Zenith specifically request these changes from Universal, or receive the Universal ebauches and subsequently modify this part? I'm struggling to think through the functional utility of the changes.

 

[dsio]

For $1175? Keep it

 

[marturx]

I guess you low balled it repeatedly for a reason. You suspected it not to be correct. Your gut feeling proved to be right.

And now you own it. And I believe that you like it, this "bastard" baby made out of Zenith/ Universal Someone has to take care of it, and that one is you, Lou.

I say keep it.

 

[ulackfocus]

Is it a Zeniversal or Unith?

 

[LouS]

U ulackfocus

Is it a Zeniversal or Unith?

Zeniversal sounds better to me, and very apt

gatorcpa

Here's a question for you. Is it possible that Zenith bought the whole watch from Universal, deliberately removed the logo from the inside of back and fitted the dial you see there, maybe the bezel as well? Done here in the US by the distributor?

I doubt it. Zenith had an ongoing arrangement with UG for movements, and had no need to adapt a UG case. They had their own supply of cases for these chronographs. I think the "adaptation" took place more recently. I wonder, though, that the adapter troubled to try to erase the UG logo but not the serial numbers.

marturx

I guess you low balled it repeatedly for a reason. You suspected it not to be correct. Your gut feeling proved to be right.
And now you own it. And I believe that you like it,this "bastard" baby made out of Zenith/ Universal Someone has to take care of it, and that one is you, Lou.
I say keep it.

Your assessment is very acute, and jibes pretty well with my own. I lowballed it because it is a disaster of a dial. I bothered to bid at all because it is a lovely case at 38mm, a huge pizza pie of rose gold, and darned hard to find at all, much less with the lug bezels not polished smooth. And although I am usually as bothered as woodwkr2 by little inconsistencies, I don't find myself the least bit troubled in this instance. If I find a homeless dial and movement (and I think the movement was replaced, Stewart, although I haven't made a close study of the movement parts you mention), that'll be great, and if I don't, also good enough. Certainly the price, something less than half of what these go for, is not irrelevant, but the decision is made in the gut, and no one is more surprised than I am that I am not bothered by the frankenizing.

 

[MMMD]

Ahhhh... that explains the attractive but totally un-Zenith-looking fluted bezel. That part was simultaneously enticing and puzzling to me. I agree, keep it... it's the bastard love child of two great collecting passions of yours, and you got it for a song.

 

[Privateday7]

+1 Keep it, I agree with you the fluted bezel is one of the most attractive bezel that I have ever seen for chrono in this era. Plus it is a rosegold.
At that price, it make sense just to keep it and open the possibility what this watch could evolve in the future.......(more correct info, possible correct parts coming etc.)

 

[NT931]

Keep it! Isn't it "World Adopt-A-Zeniversal Day" today?

It's a nice size and blotchy dial aside, the bezel is very pretty.

 

[citizenrich]

I really like this watch. Everything about her is contrary and different .

for instance: usually the subdials on these machine turned dials are a hot mess; these are perfect.

Who knows, maybe the right pieces will come along one day...

in the meantime, you have a watch whose gold value might even be a little more than you paid...who gets hurt here? Not you.

 

[STANDY]

gatorcpa

Here's a question for you. Is it possible that Zenith bought the whole watch from Universal, deliberately removed the logo from the inside of back and fitted the dial you see there, maybe the bezel as well? Done here in the US by the distributor?

X2

 

[danomar]

Cross-pollination of parts is not uncommon, but this is a new one to me. That said, I wonder how the inside caseback engravings could be so sharp and similar to what would be expected of an original Zenith while knowing the "UG" logo was removed. It would be very difficult to retain the hallmarks and then turn/grind the UG logo. It looks as though the logo was removed and then the hallmarks engraved. Maybe it is original.

I say keep it regardless. It is a very nice watch and a nice conversation piece.

 

[pitpro]

danomar

It looks as though the logo was removed and then the hallmarks engraved. Maybe it is original.

The man has a point, no?

 

[woodwkr2]

Or the frankendoctor simply went to town on the UG logo with some sandpaper and then lightly added the circular graining to even everything out when he was done.

Gold is soft, this wouldn't be a difficult operation. But he probably erred on the light side (and didn't obliterate the UG logo completely) because he was trying to not also obliterate the circular swirls that decorate the caseback, and are much more of a PITA to recreate had he gone too far and left the area shiny. Oops.

 

[pitpro]

the circular grain doesn't pass through the hallmarks

 

[woodwkr2]

pitpro

the circular grain doesn't pass through the hallmarks

Tough to say from here... but I think you could make a reasonable case for the circular graining being added after a polishing/obliterate UG logo attempt. The hallmarks are deep, and if you put this in a lathe at low speed and eased up on the pressure of your graver when the hallmarks were coming around, I think it could be done. Notice where the graver caught in the edge of the hallmark. In steel you wouldn't see this, but in 18K, it's soft enough, that if the hallmark was deep enough, you'd just see the edge deformation that is seen here:

 

[woodwkr2]

You're also giving the Frankendoctor a lot more credit than I think he's due. You're assuming that he has very passable gold hallmark stamps... which ultimately builds to your point that Zenith altered a UG caseback and therefore had access to the correct stamps.

I think this is far cruder. I don't think Zenith laid hands on this caseback. To my eye this has the hallmarks of one of the "watchmakers" hailing from Lima or the neighborhood of La Boca en la Capital, Buenos Aires. They're good, but they're also lazy, because they're not trying to outwit a group of smart folks on internet forums with reference books and macro lenses. They're just trying to get it good enough to fool los ricos que ven a la feria de Palermo o La Recoleta... or now, with the Peso again in crisis, los extranjeros.